CHAPTER ONE: There Can’t Be Just One True Religion
May 18th, 2008 by Todd Johnson
The Book begins with a number of chapters addressing some of the most widespread objections to Christianity.
Premise of the first chapter: One of the biggest problems many have with Christianity can be summed up in one word: exclusivity
Here’s the rundown: (I’m going to quote and summarize)
If Christians are right about Jesus being God, then Muslims and Jews fail in a serious way to love God as God really is, but if Muslims and Jews are right that Jesus is not God but rather a teacher or a prophet, then Christians fail in a serious way to love God as God really is. The bottom line is - we can’t all be equally right about the nature of God.
It is widely believed that one of the main barriers to world peace is religion, and especially the major traditional religions with their exclusive claims to superiority. As a result there are calls to outlaw religion, condemn religion, or at least to radically privatize it.
1. Outlaw religion
There have been several massive efforts to do this in the twentieth century. Soviet Russia, Communist China, the Khmer Rouge, and (in a different way) Nazi Germany were all determined to tightly control religious practice. The result however was not more peace and harmony, but more oppression. The tragic irony of the situation is brought out by Alistair McGrath in his history of atheism:
“The 20th century gave rise to one of the greatest and most distressing paradoxes of human history: that the greatest intolerance and violence of that century were practiced by those who believed that religion caused intolerance and violence.”
Because of the vitality of religious faith in the world, efforts to suppress or control it often serve only to make it stronger. When the Chinese Communists expelled Western missionaries after WWII, they thought they were killing off Christianity in China. Instead, this move only served to make the leadership of the Chinese church more indigenous and therefore to strengthen it
2. Condemn religion
Here is an effort to socially discourage religions that claim to have “the truth” and that try to convert others to their beliefs, and to find ways to urge citizens , whatever their religious beliefs, to admit that each religion or faith is just one of many equally valid paths to God and ways to live in the world. Here, all religions can claim “part” of the truth, but none can claim the whole truth.
3. Keep religion completely private
This approach to the divisiveness of religion is to allow that people may privately believe their faith is the truth and may “evangelize” for their faith, but religious beliefs should be kept out of the public sphere.
Keller argues at the end of the chapter that Christianity’s claims are not only exclusive, but that within Christianity - robust, orthodox Christianity - there are rich resources that can make its followers agents for peace on earth.
- Christianity provides a firm basis for respecting people of other faiths.
- Christians believe that all human beings are made in the image of God.
- Christianity not only leads its members to believe people of other faiths have goodness and wisdom to offer, it also leads them to expect that many will live lives morally superior to their own.
- Most religions and philosophies of life assume that one’s spiritual status depends on your religious attainments. This naturally leads adherents to feel superior to those who don’t believe and behave as they do. The Christian gospel, in any case, should not have that effect.
THE BOTTOM LINE: We as Christians are unashamed of the exclusive claim of Jesus Christ who Himself said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except through Me.” , but this belief in no way leads to elitism in His people. The truth of Jesus should be humbling.
What do you think?
Looking forward to your input.
42 Responses to “CHAPTER ONE: There Can’t Be Just One True Religion”
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About Todd
Name: Todd Johnson
Location: Grass Valley, CA
Contact: todd@crossroadslive.com
About: Todd is the husband of Sharon, the father of Morgan, Caleb, Makenzie & Claire, and a pastor at Crossroads Church. He considers each of these roles the greatest of privileges.
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May 18th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
I think you’re right Todd, it shouldn’t lead to elitism and should be humbling. I think the problem and what Mr. Keller is encouraging is real honest conversation. As Christians we should always be ready to give an answer for the reason that’s in us with gentleness and respect (1peter 3:15). But it seems a lot of christians don’t know the reasons or are afraid to engage in honest conversation with non believers because they’re afraid they won’t have all the answers. So they won’t engage them in conversation or will give up easy. I’ll never forget a lady I used to know when she was going to visit non believing relatives. I asked if she had shared the gospel with them and she said they were too difficult to talk to about that if there going to be saved there going to be saved. Totally justifing in her mind her lack of responsibility as a Christian. I used to think I needed all the answers before I could engage anyone and I would justify it by saying ‘what if I don’t have the answers and they stump me, then the’ll be eternally lost and it will be all my fault’. Thankfully God got through and has given me all the answers J/K. Really I realize that it’s God that does the saving, I’m called to give a reason and point them to Jesus, not have all the answers or win a debate.
When I look at Jesus and the great cost that was paid for my sin it/s very humbling. We have the Truth and we should not be ashamed of it and should earnestly contend for the Faith (Jude 1:3).
May 19th, 2008 at 11:38 am
KEEP RELIGION COMPLETELY PRIVATE:
Rawls & Audi argued, in public political discussions, we may not agure for a moral position unless it has a secular, nonreligious grounding.
How can that “POSSILE BE?” This country is said, to be 90 per cent Christian, with hopefully good morals being taught.
What ever they are, (morals) they are going to effect the way we talk, think, act, etc. To say, that we cannot express these views, it like saying, “STOP BREATHING.” It is part of our very being. That is what being a Christian is all about.!!!
There might be a time that we cannot express our views, but we can always go forward in our heart and do what is expected of us and do the right thing.
May 19th, 2008 at 11:47 am
OPS…. spelled POSSIBLY wrong.. Hey Todd, you need to up date you time on your blog.
May 19th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
TW -
In correcting the word POSSIBLY, you misspelled “oops”.
And I don’t know what “you time” is, unless you’re referring to “me time”, in which case you’re right - I need some more “me time”.
Tell you what: If you will work on spelling, I’ll work on time. Deal?
May 19th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
“FUNNY’!!!!
I am referring to the you blog time. Needs to be set up one hour.. And, it’s a deal.
May 19th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
I have not received my copy of the book yet but I did listen to Keller’s sermon on “exclusivity”. His statement that “everyone” has exclusive beliefs, not just Christians, and the logic and evidence he uses to prove his point effectively ended the argument for me. He then moves on from there to what I believe to be the most important question: “Which set of exclusive beliefs produces the most peace loving, reconciling, and inclusive behavior”. He addresses three truths about Christianity that make it unique from all other religions and that knowing these truths, and more importantly living these truths, will empower us to become agents of peace.
At this point in the sermon everything began to move from my head to my heart. Keller’s logic and my own seem to fall short when it came to having the power to convince someone of the truths of Christianity. Logic and reasoning, though very important to the process, are useless without true Christ exulting love. And it’s not just that unbelievers need to see how much we love them but that they need to see how much we love God. That’s what I like about Keller. When you listen to him you can tell that it’s the love of God that influences him. As Paul wrote to the Corinthians “For the love of Christ controls us…” so we too must have this love as our primary motivation. We don’t study the Bible and Christian doctrine so that we will be able speak knowledgably with the unbelieving world but we study in order to know the Lord as He truly is and in doing so fall in love with Him more and more each day. I like the way NLT translates Paul’s words to Timothy: “The purpose of my instruction is that all believers would be filled with love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and genuine faith”.
It’s interesting how this began for me as an intellectual discussion in apologetics but moved to an examination of my own heart. How can I expect those to whom I witness to be convinced that Jesus is the only way if they don’t see a life changing love for Him permeating my life? And if that is not there then what is it about me that will attract them to Christ? And how can a self-loving self-exulting person such as me ever be used by God to reach anybody? J.I Packer gives a great answer: “And to the further question still: how am I to go about believing on Christ and repenting, if I have no natural ability to do these things? The answer is: look to Christ, speak to Christ, cry to Christ, just as you are; confess your sin, your impenitence, your unbelief, and cast yourself on His mercy; ask Him to give you a new heart, working in you true repentance and firm faith; ask Him to take away your evil heart of unbelief and to write His law within you, that you may never henceforth stray from Him. Turn to Him and trust Him as best you can, and pray for grace to turn and trust more thoroughly; use the means of grace expectantly, looking to Christ to draw near to you as you seek to draw near to Him; watch, pray, read, and hear God’s Word, worship and commune with God’s people, and so continue till you know in yourself beyond doubt that you are indeed a changed being, a penitent believer, and the new heart which you desired has been put within you”.
I know I went a little long and a little off topic but I really believe that these things are foundational to effective ministry to the lost.
May 19th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Amen to that good stuff Perry.
May 19th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Thanks Perry. Great and humbling points!
It’s true, we can “be good” and “intellectual” as a “witness”,(which can smack at times of religion), or we can plead with Jesus to permeate our very souls and transform us.
I have done the first,(and it’s ugly),so I now strive for the latter.
May 19th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Yeah thanks for the insight Perry.
Ken- I know how you feel. I have a friend who just finished 8 years of school in Europe. Every summer he would come back to the states and we would get together and talk about a multitude of things. God being at the center of most the discussions. Him being a devout agnostic/evolutionist and me being me. Recently I looked back on our years of discussion and realize with sorrow that most of our conversations were fought in the mind. and, that trying to win arguments without love made Christ look really ugly.
its really sad but I hope that when our next conversation comes I will be able to just love him. Instead of trying to trap him by arguments into the kingdom.
May 19th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Perry,
I’m completely with you. Heart work is the goal.
At the same time, are we dismissing the mind? Minimizing the importance of truth? I’m just thinking out loud.
“The heart will not accept what the mind rejects.” —Jonathan Edwards
I love that verse you quoted from Timothy. I’ve taken that as a personal instruction for the purpose of the church. But love without truth is sentimentalism. Truth without love turns into dead orthodoxy. I’m striving for love that is informed by truth. In fact, in that very verse in 1 Timothy 1 are the words “love that comes from… genuine faith”.
I’m getting excited about our next series of studies on Sunday mornings because the two major themes for months to come are going to be the themes of truth AND love.
May 19th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
Mike and Ken - I totally relate to you guys! I used to be so proud of my ability to defend the Faith. I was more interested in defending my position than winning a soul and I definitely wasn’t motivated by a love for the Lord. Isn’t it wonderful though how God didn’t leave me there? I still have a long way to go but it’s nice to look back and see the change.
Todd - I couldn’t agree with you more. Love has to be based in truth or it’s just fluff. And what is the truth we need to know? It’s GOD! He is the truth. As I said, the goal of “study” is that we would see God as He truly is and love “Him” more as a result. The more I study God the more I love Him and when I share with unbelievers the foundational doctrines of the Christian Faith I’m sharing with them the very things that have put that love in my heart, the very truths of the person of God. If that’s not using my mind than I don’t know what is.
I’m so excited that the themes for the Sundays to come are going to be truth and love! That is right where I’m at and I think that’s goes for many others! Care to give us Book Clubers a hint as to the book you’ll be teaching from. I’ve been racking my brain trying to think where you’d start.
May 19th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
Todd- Interesting quote from Edwards. I have a few thoughts. Cant the mind be overruled by the heart? isn’t the heart deceitful and wicked above all things? Isn’t it because of mens hearts IE: (lustful desires) that they suppress the truth and knowledge of God in there minds?
I too am just thinking out loud and please correct me if I’m off.
I’ve herd Piper talk a ton about how we as humans think our mind is a “neutral” party being able to judge “rationally” the things we see in our own lives and others… but his take is that the heart will fool the mind every time because deep down our sin and flesh is more important to us. So our mind will become subservient to our hearts and will in affect do our hearts bidding.
I say all this in the context of witnessing to unbelievers for we as believers have been givin the Holy Spirit and the mind of Christ.
I see Todd that your saying its a balance in witnessing, Truth and Love. Just wondering if maybe one follows the other. for example when Jesus met with Nicodemus. His first proclamation to him was “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God” and when Paul was speaking to the Corinthians “The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.”
What I’m asking is. Does the Holy Spirit always play a part in taking Truth and making it known to our minds? Can Truth be known outside of the working of the Holy Spirit? When I say Truth. I want to define that as The Truth of the gospel. Not just random 2+2=4 Truth
Discuss
May 20th, 2008 at 8:37 am
Hints we have so far about the next teaching series:
1) It’s a letter
2) It’s all about Christ
3) Two major themes are truth and love
4) It must be somewhat short since this is a “carry us through the summer” series. So probably not Romans.
5) Can’t be Hebrews since that was just done on Wed. nights.
My guess is 1 John.
Also - great comments from everyone. Really enjoying hearing what you all think about this.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:24 am
Chris - You’re good. You’re really good.
On another note - How ’bout that book. I was really hoping some of you would bring into the discussion some of the finer points of CH one.
Is the exclusive nature of Christianity a problem?
Is it crazy to tell this world that there is only one way to God and His heaven?
Are Christians making it a problem by their attitudes and behaviors?
Are we as Christians agents for peace?
What have we got right… What can we do better?
May 20th, 2008 at 10:43 am
To me, one of the key points he made was that Christianity is the only world view that allows for a position of humility toward those outside of it, because the core of our belief is that we ourselves bring nothing to the table. He didn’t specifically mention it, but this only works if you’re (at least partly) a Calvinist.
This is one of the things that we as Christians get wrong all the time. We take our love of morality (a good thing) and project it unwittingly as the sense that we are upstanding and moral people, rather than sinners saved by grace.
I don’t know how, but we have to do this better. It’s a tough thing to love and fight for morality without the world getting the impression that we think ourselves to be better than them.
I think we need T-Shirts that say “Pathetic, but saved by God”. Or maybe just “Pathetic”.
May 20th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Okay Todd, back on track. I blame myself for the detour. I’m so “pathetic”. Hey Chris, can I get one of those T-shirts?
May 20th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Perry - I don’t mind detours. It’s been a good discussion. You guys have all brought up some good and valuable stuff.
I just thought that since this is a “Book Club” we ought to spend a little time on the book.
Chris - I was left with the same key point in my mind: Humility ought to mark Christ’s followers, not self-righteousness or elitism.
May 20th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Todd-
May 20th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Someone needs to call Ken and make sure he’s ok!?
May 20th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
Thanks Perry… my computer has a mind of its own.
May 21st, 2008 at 5:29 am
Haven’t gotten the book yet, but I have fully enjoyed reading the comments you have left. It is giving me strength and lifting me up to know that there are quite a few people out there that are genuinely in love with the Lord. It seems lonely until you decide not to forsake the gathering together to share Truth. I have a love for you guys like a family and I have never spoken to you or seen most of you in person. I am a bit jealous that you all get to attend the same church and I am stuck over here in Oklahoma, but this is the next best thing. Thanks to the wonders of the internet podcast I get to hear your sermons online while I am working. Praise the Lord for the blessings He gives to those that love and follow Him. I am excited to read the first and second chapters when I get it and keep letting the Lord speak Truth and Love through you. God bless
May 21st, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Geoff - I’m so glad you could join us! We are family. It’s encouraging to see someone who lives so far away excited about hanging out with a bunch like us. Lord bless you Bro!
May 21st, 2008 at 6:32 pm
I’ve been thinking a lot about the problem of exclusivity. It hasn’t been easy but here are my thoughts.
The world points its finger at us and says we are exclusive. But as Keller states, in reality they are just as exclusive as we are. I agree. But is there something deeper that causes the world to look at Christianity in such a bad light and is the claim of exclusivity simply a way to deflect from the truth of what is really in their hearts. Now I know the Church is not perfect and we have many problems that we need to address. If I were to have to narrow down all the problems with the Church into one word I would have to say that hypocrisy would be that word. I think the world is right to make that charge against us and it is a very serious charge at that. But I can’t help wondering if trying to address the issue of exclusivity simply because the World says we are exclusive is the proper strategy. Once we tackle that issue to World’s liking, if that’s even possible, I wonder if the World will simply come up with another criticism to take its place. Now I like Keller’s idea of proclaiming the uniqueness of Christianity as an apologetic tool but I’m not sure trying to argue the claim of exclusivity will accomplish much. For example: There was a man I know who recently went through a painful divorce. Months before he found out about his wife’s desire to divorce he started noticing that she seemed unhappy with their relationship. He began to question her as to what she was unhappy about. She would make statements like “you’re not home enough” or “you don’t spend enough time with the kids and I”. So he began to do that very thing thinking it would make her happy. But she wasn’t any happier. He quizzed her again. “You don’t help around the house” she stated. So he began helping more around the house. But once again it did not bring about the results he thought it would. She was still unhappy. Other issues were discussed and more changes were made but nothing seemed to change her feelings. In reality she was just using these criticisms as a cover for what was really going on. She was having an affair and had already filed for divorce. She had already planned to leave her husband so nothing he did made any difference. All she was doing was trying to justify her sin by criticizing her husband and pointing out his failures. She had no intention of trying to save the marriage and all his attempts to save it were fruitless.
I think this is what the world is doing in its claim of exclusivity. They want to justify themselves and their sin by criticizing the church. It makes them feel better if they can point the finger elsewhere. And no matter how many hoops we jump through to appease their criticisms it will never be enough because their mind has already been made up. Of course not everyone is like this. Those who are called WILL come. They WILL respond to our efforts to draw them because God is moving on their hearts. And I think it’s those who are the “Called” that we should focus our attention on.
I’m going to stop at this point and begin to think about how we take an active role in God’s calling of the elect and if discussing the problem of exclusivity is a way to do that. Until then I look forward to hearing your thoughts on what I have say.
May 21st, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Todd, I have a question. Not to distract from what Perry said, because I think it bears considering, and is very true.
This is somewhat related though, since he (and all of us) have been addressing the book as an apologetics book.
You said - either here, or in the other comment thread - that you don’t consider this an apologetics book. I read that and thought I got what you meant, but upon further reflection, I have no idea.
That’s been bothering me. That’s critical to where the discussion goes, I think…
May 21st, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Thank you Perry and my heart goes out to the pain that must be causing your friend. Thanks for sharing that. It is very true I think that alot of people attack Christians for those very reasons. I also think that some attack christians because thats the way they have been raised and others fear the unknown. Alot of history, makes us out to be monsters instead of the loving family we have here. Thats the wonder of living for Jesus is you don’t have to really do anything other than love the Lord with all your heart and all your soul and lean not on your own understanding, but in all your ways acknowledge Him. Don’t know the reference for that, but I think its in the first or second chapter of Proverbs. Jesus works a miracle in the hearts of those that see how you live and how you respond to their hate and anger and it transforms their minds and hearts into desiring the admirable quality of light that comes only by the Holy Spirits love shining in you. On another note, I got the book so I will start it tonight. I’m excited. God bless
May 21st, 2008 at 10:36 pm
Let me try to clarify what I meant. I grew up on apologetics books such as “Evidence that Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell and “The Resurrection Factor” and “More Evidence that Demands a Verdict” and “A Ready Defense” etc. Books that lay out factual data, evidence, proof that Christianity must be true (all good by the way, and greatly used). But I don’t see this book in that vein. I see Keller’s book as Philosophical more than factual or evidential. I see it asking the “why” question more than the “what” question. A subtle distinction maybe, but a distinction that I think is important.
So, more than a book that says, “here is the evidence”, I see this book as saying, “Come and let us reason together…”.
I understand that I’m seeing this book through the lens of my 25 year history with apologetics books, and I see this one as different, but that’s how I see it.
I hope that at least clarifies my statement, if not answering your question.
May 22nd, 2008 at 7:45 am
I woke this morning with some additional thoughts.
If when we speak of exclusivity we are simply referring to the claims of Jesus that he is the only way to God then I think the discussion can be very worthwhile. On the other hand, though I think Keller is correct when he states that everyone is exclusive in their beliefs, the exclusive nature of the claims of Christ is far different from the exclusive nature of the claims of other belief systems. Jesus’ claims were very different than those of other religious leaders. All the others claimed to know the way. Jesus claimed to be the way. This sets Christianity apart from the rest and makes its exclusivity far more extreme than theirs. When I look at it this way I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that the World points the finger of exclusivity at Christianity more than any other religion. So how do we answer them? Well, Jesus is the only religious leader to make the claim that he is the only way and that makes him unique. So I would follow the logic of Keller and focus my attention on showing the uniqueness of Christianity and using that as an evidence of its validity.
May 22nd, 2008 at 8:33 am
Something that was small in the book, but really caught my attention was on page 12 in the introduction. Keller stated that he had three growth barriers in his path on his spiritual journey during his college years. One was the “intellectual” barrier of tough questions about Christianity. The second was an “interior and personal one”. The last was a “social” one relating to social justice and how could we as Christians mesh social principles into action keeping in focus an accurate Biblical worldview?
I’d like to focus on his second barrier, the personal level,where he stated he had never “experienced God’s presence personally”. This could be a big topic, as he stated, and he said it could be a whole other book in itself. This caught my attention though because I have worked with junior high and high school students for years and held a “guys” group with some of them in my home for an extended length of time. This very topic came up with the high school guys, “not sensing the presence of God in their lives”. Out of about eleven guys, only two even had a clue what I was even talking about. I am not even eluding to “touchy feely” things with God, I just mean ANY sense or awareness of God’s hand on or in their personal walk with God. I was really surprised! These guys are from Godly families,good teaching (I assumed), but what about that? And to top it off, most of these guys are pretty darn smart,good debaters and thinkers(”intellectuals”), so why this issue of not even sensing God’s presence or his “hand” working in their personal lives? I believe this could be due in part to not being honest and real with other Christians or with God as to how they FEEL, not just what they THINK. The guys could give solid intellectual answers to many puzzling questions, but those answers had to be tried in the furnace of daily living.(Did they really BELIEVE the things they could debate so well?) It is often in the toughest of times that God proves himself in a whole new way. Then the Need for His presence is there and we are needy enough to let our minds be balanced out with our hearts. Just some thoughts…
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:32 am
Sorry Todd…I have to post this for Ken. I know it’s off topic but I just read this yesterday and thought it might answer Ken’s last post.
Ken - Check this out.
“If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.”
— 1 Peter 2:3
If:—then, this is not a matter to be taken for granted concerning every one of the human race. “If:”—then there is a possibility and a probability that some may not have tasted that the Lord is gracious. “If:”—then this is not a general but a special mercy; then it is needful to enquire whether we know the grace of God by inward experience. There is no spiritual favour which may not be a matter for heart-searching.
But while this should be a matter of earnest and prayerful inquiry, no one ought to be content whilst there is any such thing as an “if” about his having tasted that the Lord is gracious. A jealous and holy distrust of self may give rise to the question even in the believer’s heart, but the continuance of such a doubt would be an evil indeed. We must not rest without a desperate struggle to clasp the Saviour in the arms of faith, and say, “I know whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him.” Do not rest, O believer, till thou hast a full assurance of thine interest in Jesus. Let nothing satisfy thee till, by the infallible witness of the Holy Spirit bearing witness with thy spirit, thou art certified that thou art a child of God. Oh, trifle not here; let no “perhaps” and “peradventure” and “if” and “maybe” satisfy thy soul. Build on eternal verities, and verily build upon them. Get the sure mercies of David, and surely get them. Let thine anchor be cast into that which is within the veil, and see to it that thy soul be linked to the anchor by a cable that will not break. Advance beyond these dreary “ifs;” abide no more in the wilderness of doubts and fears; cross the Jordan of distrust, and enter the Canaan of peace, where the Canaanite still lingers, but where the land ceaseth not to flow with milk and honey.
Spurgeon, C. H. (1995). Morning and evening : Daily readings (May 21 AM). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
May 22nd, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Todd- Perhaps you should go to another web site…Perry and I are having a good exchange of conversation. (kidding)
Perry- Thanks, that was good! From the brain, to the HEART, and hopefully, lived out in life. …that’s what it’s all about.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:43 am
Ken and Perry- You guys bring up some really good points that made me really think. I love your insight.
I’ve found in personal, one on one evangelism, that the idea that Jesus is the only way to heaven is way down the totem poll on the list to teach an unbelieving world. Unless of course your dealing with someone who has studied or been influenced by many different ideologies. Or “intellectuals” as they like to call them selves, they seem to go right to that point and argue vehemently.
I find, much more frequently, a distaste for the “church.” Be it in many forms. From people that claim to be followers of Jesus. Love of money, Hipocrasy, unloveing, spiteful, thieves, fornicators. Ect. Problem is, we all deal with these things… and we can never be perfect before unbelievers, though we should try.
I really feel that the body fails in proclaiming Grace. Somehow, someway, the world has gotten the idea that Christ = Rules. Which is really sad. I say, from my very small pool of experiential Christian wisdom, that we try with all our might to be perfect as our Father is perfect. and in the process never cease to proclaim the grace that God has on sinners and saints alike. Proclaim grace continually. so that when the world wants to point a finger at us they’ll find us already pointing a finger at ourselves. saying “praise God for His grace!” It would, I hope, change the very mindset of the unbelievers we come in contact with. From Christianity being a religion of rules to Christianity being a group of disgusting people saved, and sanctified by Gods grace.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:50 am
Mike - Great comments!
I like this book, The Reason for God, a lot. Intellectual questions are necessary and good when folks ask them with an honest desire to know Truth. I have found that some people in my past were not really on an intellectual pursuit (me included), it was just a smokescreen to intimidate others from entering into the deeper questions like Tim Keller is addressing.It was a way of keeping control over conversations that might make them come up empty when it came to answering the deeper questions of life.
On another note, I liked your description, “disgusting people saved and sanctified by God’s Grace”. I laughed when I read this.
I liked what you said about , “Christ = rules” to some. We can either try in our flesh to be “godly” or good…which will produce plastic fruit in a Christian, or we can saturate ourselves in God and fall in love with Him more and more and REAL fruit will come out naturally in our lives. The repression of the work, or dare I say, movement, of the Holy Spirit in many churches represses the very changes, empowerment,and fruit that God wants to bear in us. Keeping a distance from the Holy Spirit, due to fear, is such a trap of the enemy. We can shoot ourselves in the foot spiritually.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:49 pm
Great discussion! It is really difficult for anyone in our culture to say to others “My God is truer-bigger-better-more powerful-smarter-and more everlasting than yours (to name only a few).” Exclusivity is a “dirty word” because being wrong is no longer an option–which removes the foundation of what “right” is. Keller explains this very well and has given me a clearer view of what the current trends in philosophy are–and reiterates the fact that everyone has an exclusive belief system (which am working on accepting). It’s not natural(for me)to accept being “wrong.” However, scripture supports theological empirialism. Colossians 1:16-18 declares “For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” In my opinion, this verse ends all debate with an eternal checkmate. What I get from Keller is that there is a reason for the chess match. I’m looking forward to seeing how the mechanics of apologetics works in such a way to share Christ with others. I like 2 cor 5:20. “We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us.” No pressure!
I admit, there are some days, weeks, and months that I have struggled with accpeting the theological empirialism of my faith. I am hopeful that this book and working through it with others will help me accept my discomfort and move towards a greater respect for the gift God’s given me–Truth.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:12 pm
It’s been a busy week so I’m a little late on my comments. Quite a lively and insightful discussion going on here. One of my favorite subjects is how God gives us creative ways to bridge to the unbeliever with the Gospel. Tim Keller has hit on some concept/descriptions that are really exciting and freeing. His statement on pg. 13 that “We are all exclusive in our beliefs about religion, but in different ways.” is a great way to bring unbelievers to a common level of discussion/agreement and build from there. On page 15 Keller starts to build with the question “What is religion then?” He then goes on with a discussion of worldview or narrative identity. I like how he humbly starts a gentle controversy. The controversy being what and how is your worldview formed and how does it play out in your life? Most peoples beliefs and actions don’t match that often, including our own as Keller admits. Pg. 20 Keller makes a great summary statement in the last paragraph, “Why would such an exclusive belief system lead to behavior that was so open to others? It was because Christians had within their belief system the strongest possible resource for practicing sacrificial service, generosity, and peace-making” This is where I have found in my job at an unbelieving workplace, God has forced me to practice my belief and yet verbalize that belief about our Jesus that is both graciously gentle and yet intolerant truth. I love Keller’s approach because it is very simular to what God lead me to do two years ago with a new supervisor who is Mormon. Can’t approach this fellow with the normal Mormon banter. God’s love and grace is truly winning in this boss/friend/coworker. He doesn’t seem to be questioning Mormonism as much as he is questioning how his beliefs have affected his behavior (good and bad). Our discussions have focused how God’s grace changes us. I have found that people will listen to exclusive truth if I’ve treated them with respect and appreciation for their job at my office. It’s actually quite interesting how the Mormon’s dislike the JW’s who dislike the Roman Catholic’s who dislike the greek orthodox who critizes the new ager’s. Looking forward to the upcoming chapters to see how Keller draws the unbeliever in and reveals the Prince of (exclusive) Peace in an active discussion. I’d like to hear some of your experiences at engaging the sceptic.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:22 pm
Regarding Todd’s questions: Are Christians making it a problem by their attitudes and behaviors? And: What have we got right and what can we do better?
I am only speaking from personal experience here. Before I asked the Lord into my heart, I would observe Christians and 95% of them set rotten examples to me. They were A reason, not THE reason that I did not want to be like them and become a Christian. Their behaviors may have shown grace and forgiveness toward other believers, but I saw many
Christians taking advantage of each other. Their lives lacked balance. Either over-disciplined or lazy. The 5% who were good examples are the ones I still respect today. They humbly admitted when they were wrong, they served/serve others with love and in the fear of the Lord. I’m still thanking God for them.
Presently I have many, many more good examples in my life. As we’re taught the Word we’re also taught how to rightly apply Scripture to our lives. How to live truly and exclusively
for Him. Maybe that was a missing element in my past? (I was brought up as a Baptist; maybe that was it)
Keller has reminded me of the importance of humility before God and man. As a believer who needs more grace, I have resumed praying for my heart to be humble. And to love others, having God’s eyes and God’s heart for them.
What have we got right? Being involved in Book Clubs, the Truth project, Bible study on Sundays and Wednesdays. We are rich, Crossroads Church!!! Also, I see balance, at least within my immediate Christian family. This balance is crucial as a witness tool in the world today.
What can we do better? Pray. Ask God not IF, but WHERE He wants us to serve Him outside of our comfortable Christian family. Just going to work for some is their mission field. For others it’s being involved in their children’s lives. Practical ways, but powerful in the hands of God. Our attitudes and actions are being observed closely by some.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Wow! - All of you have brought quite a lot to the table. I’ve enjoyed reading through everybody’s comments.
Jon & Todd, You came late to the game but both of you brought some great comments with you. I’m looking forward to hearing much more from both of you in the future.
Lori - You brought up HUMILITY. Without question, that is key! We can have all the truth in the world, but without the the “mind of Christ” in us that makes of ourselves nothing, becoming servants to all, forget about it! I think the truth comes best through humble persons. Thank you for your comments.
Geoff - Glad you’ve got your book. I hope to see you here some more next week.
Mike - It’s always fun to hear what’s in your head. You’re a thinker, and I like that. You have a genuine heart for God in you. Keep on!
Chris - Way to go figuring out the next series for Sunday mornings. You clearly know your Bible. Your comments make this thread better. Keep coming around.
Ken & Perry - I think we’re going to open up a chat room for you boys to carry on your discussions. Seriously, you both had good things to share with us. Thank you.
Tom & TW - You were the first to show up. Let’s see if you can start us off again this week. Thank you for your contribution as well.
The second chapter is exceptional - we’ll open it up Sunday night and begin all over again. It should be a great discussion.
Pray for Sunday’s worship, that God would be blessed, Christ exalted, the church built up, and the unbeliever drawn to Jesus.
May 29th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Todd - As a “formal” apologetics beginner, I was wondering if you would recommend “Evidence That Demands a Verdict” as my next book. If not, what would you recommend? I’m hungry and a little anxious, actually. Time’s running short. Either Jesus is coming back or I’m one day closer to going to Him. Too many people I know and love need Him.
Thank you!
May 29th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
Lori -
I don’t know the latest and greatest, but the books I mentioned by Josh McDowell are great. I believe that Evidence that Demands a Verdicts was updated and renamed “A Ready Defense”. That’s the one I would recommend.
Maybe somebody else will come along here and recommend some other resources to you as well.
May 29th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
Thank you, Todd. I look forward to getting started.
May 30th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
How about “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis for the apologist’s list? It is the very first Christian literature I was given. I’ve been under Lewis’ spell ever since.
“Mere Christianity is a book by C. S. Lewis, adapted from a 1943 series of BBC radio lecture broadcast while Lewis was at Oxford during World War II. It is considered a classic work in Christian apologetics. The transcripts of the broadcasts, expanded into book form, originally appeared in print as three separate pamphlets, The Case for Christianity, Christian Behaviour, and Beyond Personality” (I copied this from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_Christianity)
May 30th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Mere Christianity? ABSOLUTELY.
Excellent book. And a lot like Keller’s in that it tackles the “why” questions of life and faith. Highly recommended.
May 30th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Thanks, you guys!