20 Responses to “Is atheism irrational? - Link of the week”

1. Tom Schneider Says:
   May 19th, 2008 at 9:24 am

   Thanks Todd as men continue to love darkness rather than light its great to see Godly men that will continue to shine the light on them and expose them and the real reasons for there unbelief.I pray that god will open there eyes to the truth.

2. Chris Says:
   May 19th, 2008 at 10:53 am

   I read through that this morning after you linked it. I also listened to a Tim Keller podcast earlier this morning (podcasts summing up the contents of “The Reason for God” can be downloaded <a href=” http://sermons.redeemer.com/store/index.cfm?fuseaction=categ ory.display&category_id=29” here). I have the book on order…

   Now I’ve read a lot of things like this - apologetics - and all of it is filled with great arguments. But I guess there’s a part of me that’s wondering if it ever gets anywhere.

   I’ve had countless discussions with atheists, and with my unbelieving family, all following different logical approaches, and honestly - it feels like an exercise in futility.

   We know that prayer and the work of the Holy Spirit are the only thing to change hearts. That being the case, are we wasting our time studying apologetics, or is there some value in studying them?

   Is the value just in cementing our own belief? Is it in at least having a ready answer when the discussion comes up?

   Not trying to be negative. Honestly, Keller’s approach to exclusivity was brilliant and for me a new way of framing the argument. I just wonder if anyone has seen this type of apologetic discussion win someone to Christ.

3. TW Says:
   May 19th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

   At one time I thought, “WHY BOTHER” talking, etc. with people that did not agree with me. Now, I try to listen and read, until I learn what their views are and put myself in their shoes, you might say. In this way, I can glean why, where, etc. they are coming from. I have found understanding their views, helps me to share my view with more patient and love.
   Gleaning from others, is a blessing to learn.
   I found Atheism Irrational very interesting. I have subscribe to his blog. Won’t promise I will read it all the time…

4. Todd Johnson Says:
   May 19th, 2008 at 12:22 pm

   Chris - That’s an excellent question, one that I’ve asked myself many times. To be terribly honest, I’m not big on apologetics. I don’t get excited about it, and I don’t focus much of my time on it. That being said, I am thankful to those that are excited about it and that give their time to “defense”. I like offense (and I am offensive at times, so I’m told).

   Does God use apologetics and the people who give their lives to it? Absolutely
   Can God save a soul without it? Absolutely.
   is apologetics everything? No.
   Is apologetics something? Yes.

   By the way, I don’t even consider Timothy Keller to be an apologist. Nor do I consider his book to be apologetics. This is why I am enjoying it so. He is a professor and a pastor and I find him and his work refreshing.

   If you’d like, I’ll ask a friend of mine that is currently enrolled in the Apologetics course at Biola University to come on here and answer your questions. I think we both might find him and his ideas about apologetics very interesting.

   Stay tuned.

5. Chris Says:
   May 19th, 2008 at 1:56 pm

   I’d love to hear from your friend.

   In the past I have loved apologetics and have spent a lot of time on it. Probably just a bit frustrated that it doesn’t always work. “I have such good arguments - why aren’t you convinced?”

   Clearly, my arguments aren’t as good as I think they are

   Interesting what you said about Keller. The book seems to me like another apologetics guide like The Case for Christ, etc. If I’m understanding you right, you’re saying that it’s more a text book for Christians to understand the reasons for our position, in light of what culture says.

   That sheds a different light on it for me…

6. Mike Smith Says:
   May 19th, 2008 at 4:59 pm

   “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.”

   Men know that God exists. Deep down in them there is a sense of the Divine. They however “suppress the truth in unrighteousness.” Apologetics, for this reason, can have a profound place in saving an unregenerate soul. I can attest to that fact personally. When I came to Jesus I had many issues that were clouding up my perception of the bible and truth. If no one had gone before me and figured out rational answers to the questions I had I don’t know if I could have put my faith in the bible and Jesus… but thats the funny thing…

   Going back to Romans 1. I didn’t really want truth. Before the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the glory of Christ I was bent on suppressing every thought and idea that would reveal the truth about God to me. As were we all. If someone would have come to me with solid arguments about the bible before the Holy Spirit did His work in me I would have fought them tooth and nail. I would have “irrationally” stood my ground despite hearing the most profound argument. Can God use apologetics to break through into an unbeleaving heart? Sure. But apologetics will never by its self accomplish anything for the Kingdom of God. But coupled with prayer and love it can really do some devestating damage to satans work.

7. Michael Patton Says:
   May 19th, 2008 at 5:39 pm

   Thanks for linking to this Todd. You are great. Looks like some great stuff you have going on here. Why not start The Theology Program at your church?

8. Todd Johnson Says:
   May 19th, 2008 at 6:00 pm

   Michael -

   Thanks for stopping by. I’ve enjoyed your blog and have been recommending it to friends. Keep up the good work.

   PS We already have a great theology program here at the church. Every Sunday morning

9. Gary Ball Says:
   May 19th, 2008 at 8:48 pm

   Hi Todd,

   Chris, I’ll take a stab at a couple of your questions. As Todd mentioned, I’ve now spent close to three years of my life in the M.A. Apologetics program at Biola, a calling that has literally taken virtually all of my free time.

   Why, you might ask? Well, I am one of those people you’ve been trying to reach–apologetics does have its place in God’s witness. It was not until I discovered books by Christian authors like Norm Geisler, J.P. Moreland, Wm. Lane Craig, that I found that one can come to a rational, well reasoned, belief in Christ. So it was through the arguments of apologists that the Holy Spirit allowed me to see the truth of his Gospel. And he has called me to follow along that path; to always be ready to give a defense for the hope that is in you (1 Peter 3:15), so it is a Biblical commandment that people like you and I obey–our calling as it were.

   But let me change course here, because you said: “I have such good arguments - why aren’t you convinced?” Let me make this clear, apologetics is NOT about winning arguments, nor is it (sorry Todd) about being “defensive.” You are working in the field of pre-ministry here, a witness to those who hold the Bible with about as much reverence as they would a roll of toilet paper! Yes, believe me, Scripture comes first in my life, in fact you cannot be a good apologist if your theology is weak. But these people, especially if you are witnessing to atheists, need to be challenged through well reasoned, ideas. I used the word idea, instead of argument to emphasize that we need to have a loving “dialogue,” think of it as placing “pebbles” in their shoes. They may act like your witness is meaningless, but trust me, after a while–could be a very long while–they’ll need to take their shoes off and examine their beliefs.

   One last point. Dr. Gary Habermas, probably the leading expert on the resurrection of Christ told us this in a lecture: Don’t worry if they don’t believe, remember that many spoke to Christ face to face and still denied him. It’s his job to bring them to a saving faith, ours is to have well reasoned, logical answers for skeptics.

   Lord Bless and keep you.

10. Lori Says:
    May 19th, 2008 at 9:55 pm

    Amen to having a loving dialogue. We don’t have a clue as to how our words empowered by the Holy Spirit are effecting the unbeliever. Every window of opportunity opened to share Truth is such a gift. A challenge at times, for sure. I’ve learned to thank God for every opportunity, do my best to accurately share Him, and leave the rest in His loving hands. And PRAY!!!!

11. Ken Says:
    May 20th, 2008 at 7:44 am

    Thanks Gary. I totally agree with you that it can be a very long while before those “brainy” skeptics come to Christ…if at all. I prayed for my mom for at least twenty years before she dropped religion and came to know Jesus. It was amazing! Still amazes me!

    Patience,perseverance and prayer…killer tools for the Kingdom.

12. Lori Says:
    May 21st, 2008 at 9:13 pm

    Sorry about my previous entry from May 19. Not sure why words got scrambled. I posted it from my Mac. I’ll rewrite from a PC.

13. Perry McKinnon Says:
    May 21st, 2008 at 9:59 pm

    Todd - As I read the blog entry you linked to I was struck by an interesting thought. One of the great things about reading and listening to apologetic discussions is how it always seems to further solidify my faith. Maybe a better justification behind the study and pursuance of apologetics is that it edifies us as believers by giving many infallible proofs to bolster what we believe. I think this makes it a great tool even if the unbeliever refuses to see the truth in it.

14. Todd Johnson Says:
    May 21st, 2008 at 10:41 pm

    Perry - I agree. I am helped as I think through what I believe and why I believe it.

    Lori - I don’t know why you think your comment was scrambled. Stay on your Mac. I’m staying on mine!

    Gary - Thanks for your comment. And quit being so “defensive”. You apologists are all the same.

15. Lori Says:
    May 23rd, 2008 at 8:10 pm

    I found out it was the PC I was on that scrambled all entries, not just mine! I LOVE MY MAC, and I’m NOT going back!

16. Jon Says:
    May 24th, 2008 at 11:24 pm

    Thanks, Gary, for your refocus on what our sharing with others is all about. Years ago a man shared that asking the person I was discussing spiritual issues with “Do you feel an interest or tug at your mind/heart to know more about these things?” sometimes will tell you how or if to proceed with your discussion before it becomes argumentative. But sometimes stirring up gentle controversy stirs up genuine opportunity. Yet knowing the truth about Jesus brings a peaceable spirit as you share. This is the most fun part of my Chritian life. Seeing who God brings across my path and fishing. Watching God work in this other person as you share different points that The Holy Spirit brings to your mind. And yes many times you see no positive response or movement forward. Sometimes you seen antagonism even with the most gentle presentation of truth. Antagonism tells me they are probably fighting in accepting the truth because they are struggling with God not me. Other times people are just apathetic, veiled/numbed in their spiritual senses. So patience is needed here. But what fun and joy in seeing those who do begin to respond come closer to Jesus. Now apologetics is great! Store it all up for the day the Holy Spirit needs to grab it in your/my pea brain. And yes the key is ” But for the grace of God go I”. Apologetics also strengthens your discernment to sift out the world’s lies.

17. Frank Ordaz Says:
    May 30th, 2008 at 7:18 am

    Greetings, As a former Atheist I can say that God uses a host of agencies to reach the truly lost. God had to pierce my arrogance and pride in order to bring me to Him. There are those atheists that will come to an existential crisis and start looking outside himself for answers. There are those atheists who under no well reasoned idea will come to an acknowledgment of a divine first cause.I was the former. God uses the tender hearted old christian lady down the street as well as the learned apologist and thinker and even the artist!

    There are those that read the bible and instantly sense that it is true. That is a gift of God. There are those, such as myself, who mistrusted authority and could not see the relevance of an old book to deal with modern issues and problems. How could dead flesh regenerate itself? That was irrational….so, God has gifted those men and women who can give an answer, such as the blogger.

    Gary is right on about idea. The Christian , if he is gifted in this area, should have reasons for belief in the public square of ideas. The Christian cannot shy away. But a word of caution. Apologetics can be compared to surgery. The word will cut deep, the doctor entering this field should be empathetic to the patient and truly care for his condition. You don’t want someone who cuts you up and lets you bleed, and sends you home to fetch for yourself. St. Paul said the man of God should be respectful and that is good advice.

18. Lori Says:
    May 30th, 2008 at 9:31 am

    Thank you, Frank. I’m brand new to apologetics (aside from getting great teachings at church). And I want balance in my witness to others. I guess I qualify as the old Christian lady down the street who’s studying heart and brain surgery for the lost. Scary picture?!! I pray the Holy Spirit takes each word and uses it to His glory. Without Him I wouldn’t attempt such a feat.

19. Frank Ordaz Says:
    May 30th, 2008 at 10:11 am

    Lori,

    I remember a lady telling me about Jesus while I was an atheist. She was very kind and gentle and I could sense her heart felt reaction to my condition. Although I dismissed her claims, there was a part of me that respected her appeal to me and God used her to tear back some of the callousness over my heart.

    On another level, on another post, you will read about ” The Shack”. After reading the review it strikes me as a return to a philosophical period called Romanticism.

    Romanticism was an appeal to experience and emotion. Doctrine, Church and the bible were dismissed as too confining for God. They were all about relationship and finding many ways to God. Romanticism was a reaction to Rationalism where reason defined revelation. Freiderich Schlierermacher , the father of liberal theology , redefined all the traditional terms such as Heaven, God, atonement etc. to suit this current mood.

    I mention this only so that new books and trends can be seen and identified for what they are……and instead of overreacting , giving an answer to those who think the message is the truth.

    blessings

20. Lori Says:
    May 30th, 2008 at 9:57 pm

    Thank you so much, Frank. I’ll be careful to use the Word as my “plumbline.” Knowing Jesus and His Truth and having a relationship with HIM causes me to emote enough as it is. By definition, Romanticism seems to be making a comeback (unless it only applies to the believer?). I know many unbelievers who are completely into experience and emotion. They are also okay with finding many ways to God. So it’s hard to reach them, because my “way” and their ways are all okay. Christianity (mine) is too confining for them. But when they see stability (hopefully) in my life as I stand on the Rock, they’ll know I have someone who is real and very, very powerful.

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